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#1 Charles

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 04:41 PM

This concerns the recent discussion of the incident that involved the pastor and the difficulty of providing for lost wages during the time of incapacity. Someone quotes Margarita of Isis on TA as saying no, her insurance does not provide this coverage. If you are found at fault in an accident, you would be responsible with completing an agreement with the injuried parties to cover lost wages. I will seek confirmation personally with Margarita. I don't like to post second/third hand information without confirmation. If Margarita says no, that is a bad sign. I'd be inclined to assume her insurance would be about average at worst, if she doesn't cover it, my guess others wouldn't either.

Seeing how this is an entirely new situation and would be affecting full time locals, I feel it wise for people to investigate their coverage. I would not rely upon information from a rental agency, they may not know, they may be strongly motivated to tell you what you want to hear. I have seen and heard enough that I feel there is confirmation of new changes in the application of the law and this affects everyone, locals, tourists, Mexicans, vehicle owners, not just rentals. I'll try to investigate and I am sure others will as well. It really needs a definitive answer from an attorney and an explanation from an insurance agent.

For say a full time government worker paid a base salary without addition tips or bonuses, it could be pretty straight forward. Many people are paid by debit card electronic deposits with a paper trail and proof of income. However those who depend upon tips, maids and waiters for example or for commission earning sales people, then you could be far more complicated.

Please, whatever you do, don't try running over a time share sales person hoping for a ruling of justifiable homicide. Their incomes might have peaks and valleys sharper than the Sierra Madres. Diamond jewelry sales people as well.
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Posted 08 April 2011 - 08:06 PM

Charles, I'm sure when we rented from ISIS last month she quoted me a 450 deductible on all her older cars but because I got the newer white Golf she said it was 800 deductible, nothing was mentioned about lost wages and the like, but she assured me everything else was covered after that. There has to be some sort of transparency before you rent,the unfortunate thing is you will only know when it is to late.
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#3 Charles

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:15 PM

This was all news to me and it would appear to possibly be very recent like in the past month. I was quite surprised to see a $2,000,000 peso "wrongful death" settlement with the hotel in Playa. Previously it was cover the funeral and maybe if criminal acts were involved like an illegal gas pipeline installed that was never approved nor included in the plans not ever inspected blew up, or drunk driving accident, $50,000 pesos was tops. Kirsty MacColl's family got less than half that from a billionaire. Pain and suffering, take an aspirin.

I went by Isis a bit late and they were already closed. I'll try to see her tomorrow. If Isis insurance doesn't cover it, then the insurance now needed may not be marketed yet. I am most curious although I don't drive here. I can try to speak to an attorney for their comments or someone can email Anne Harris, she stopped answering my emails years ago and only accidentally sent me a Support Planned Parenthood and Protect Women's Rights, about the only email I have gotten from Anne that met with my approval.

I don't like to conjecture without facts from a credible source, but I have seen enough that I suspect this needs investigation. I might stop by the police station tomorrow, they might provide some information. They have always been quite friendly, but I was either there asking questions or helping to serve in translations. I have never had any experience from the wrong side.
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#4 cookielady

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 11:56 PM

Charles.......Thank you for investigating this for all of us that have concerns. I have heard the big companies Thrifty and Hertz carry lost wages insurance. Not sure if this is a rumor or not. If you have the opportunity to check with these companies as well, please report your findings. I firmly believe those hurt should be compensated within reason.
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#5 Charles

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 02:30 PM

For what it is worth, I talked to Margarita of Isis today. I have reasonable confidence and understanding of what she said regarding liability insurance and YES it should cover all damages and lost wages included. BUT We have been in the double witching time, the blue moon of government that happens every six years when both the governor and the mayor change hands. Now what could changing the administrations have to do with the price of bananas at the mercado, much less the price of justice at the courthouse.

Supposedly liability coverage has not changed. There are three levels of insurance, coverage for damages to the vehicles involved, medical costs for those injuried AND civil responsibilities which would include lost wages during you time of incapacity from injuries. What has aroused my curiosity is who the attorney was representing the injuried parties in the "pastor's" incident. Was the lawyer someone that the families called to make certain of their protections, were they hoping to turn it into a lottery winning ticket or was it an ambulance chasing attorney....trust me, for my 30% commission, I'll make sure you get triple. It could run the full range from scam artists represented by a sleazebag to people seeking true fair and total compensation for their true losses. Back to the blue moon event, was it a case of everyone expecting to dine on banana cream pie for dinner or professionals carrying out their duties in a proper manner in accordance with the somewhat archaic Mexican Napoleonic Code legal system. Anne Harris was on the scene as her job duties require, God I hate getting called away from the dinner table after my limited office hours.

Those who have been around know of (hopefully not personally) of the situation of Mexican labor law and the incredible abuses that have occurred there. Although no connection, it can serve as a parallel example. One well know attorney has built a career with bogus labor suits. He original built a career as being an attorney who won based upon law and the facts, but then discovered with a judge in one pocket and a hand on his wallet, he could creatively invent cases. He's is pretty well shut down now from the fact that most people are paid via debits and proof of actually working and for the salaries is far more evident and easier to prove. In a suit for us that he won, the labor judge refused to issue an order of seizure to demand the collection of what the court had awarded. He had to go to Chetumal and get an order from the Capitol ordering the action here. He then had to go to Merida to an even higher court to obtain an order from Merida demanding that Chetumal order the labor judge to apply the court decision that had now been six months old. When we went to see the labor judge, with the assorted court orders in hand, obey these orders or face arrest yourself! He sheepishly replied, well, well, I, I was running a little short after Christmas and the loser came in and paid the total sum as required, but I kind of needed a short term loan, I really needed $50,000 pesos and your award was only $45,000 so I borrowed your money the past four months and kept their payment off the books. Welcome to the Planet of the Apes. We gave him 24 hours to have the cash with the maximum allowed interest (not much) or he would be waiting in jail. He paid in full the next morning.

Back to car insurance, but the labor court is an example. According to Margarita of Isis, she's a local owner, not some flunky hustling for commissions. Most of what she said I know to be true from my research and the assorted years I spent as a hobby at the court house, the ministerio publico's office and working with filing complaints with the Human Rights Commission.

There are three levels of car insurance: 1. covers the physical damages to the vehicles involved, 2. then there are the medical costs of the injuried involved 3. then you have the civil responsibilities of potential costs and losses such as wages and any additional costs. Car rental companies are required by law to include liability so injuried people get covered. If you like to live dangerously and feel confident of being able to obtain potentially large sums of cash money with hopes of later reimbursement by credit card coverage, all power to you however sometimes ATMs are out of order and apparently in the "pastor's case", he ran into a limit of $1,500 dollars of wiring money via western union. I'll ask them another day.

A perito is a court certified specialist, all kinds of peritos, but in this case it would be like an insurance claims adjuster. They are suppose to be specialists in the profession, can quickly estimate physical damages, talk to the hospital and get an approximate cost and the injuried parties can submit their pay stubs as proof of income. In the "pastor's case" it was estimated that the injuried parties would receive a 30 day incapacity from their work for compound fractures of their legs. Sure compound fractures look gross, especially when you're lying in a ditch, but the victims were young, they will heal fast. If they were working, on the job, the IMSS coverage is higher for an on the job injury. I don't remember the various percentages anymore, but bad joke. When IMSS said I didn't need emergency surgery for a strangulated hernia, they thought that large protrusion "down there" could be a kidney infection, take some antibiotics and come back in a few weeks and they would test to see if I had a kidney infection. I was of the opinion shared by personal physicians that I had hours or perhaps days before it became a life threatening situation. I paid for my own operation fully covered by IMSS insurance. I almost died during and after the surgery. It took me five days to consider being able to go to IMSS for an examination to confirm that I had surgery and was indeed incapacitated for a period. Well when I got there, they were booked up solid and the earliest appointment I could have was in two more weeks. It was a doctor that shared duties there and worked at a private clinic, besides stitches, bandages and surgical scars, I had facturas as proof of the operation and costs. It was three full weeks after my surgery when they could finally examine me. The first thing they said was too bad you didn't come here directly from work as your injury was work related, you'd get paid more> (I did, the idiot said it was a kidney infection, maybe), so finally I was approved to receive 40% of my official salary, regular pay, did not include commissions for sales, it would start in three days after the exam, so finally after I had paid $10,000 pesos out of my pocket for what was covered by my insurance, they would now start paying me $20 pesos a day for the next two weeks and then see if I was still incapacitated. I got paid a whopping three weeks salary of nothing. Seven weeks later they finally admitted and realized that my kidney had somehow been ruptured during surgery and in their words, I could be dying. They did not want to pay any additional incapacity (it paid for my taxi both ways only) So in a period of ten weeks, I received three weeks of 40% of part of my income and they said I was in grave danger of dying as I was still bleeding from the kidney, the actual hernia had been near nothing compared to everything else.

I illustrate this as an example that IMSS does not provide quality treatment nor does it accurately pay for actual time of incapacity and you have to jump through all kinds of hoops and hurdles besides. The only reason I bothered was to protect my working FM3 which at that time was unusual and I might have been the first foreigner hired legally titled as working in sales and not public relations, regardless of the duties.

You have an accident, it is determined that it was your fault (praying to God no one spilled any beer on your shirt let alone having anything to actually drink. Any alcohol nullifies all insurance and then you sail in uncharted waters. You are held at the police station while all this is sorted out. The perito makes his determinations, hopefully a representative from car rental is present, the damages and medical costs are covered, but the third option, the civil responsibility, if the victim and their family accept what the perito has determined, the insurance will agree to pay and you're done. However, if the victims are savvy enough or if they are desperate enough knowing the chump change they will receive won't begin to cover actually losses and need to provide for their families, Then the case needs to proceed to the next level. Since you're in jail, you're motivated to accept a settlement, they're suffering in the hospital after surgery getting a Tylenol every 12 hours if they have pain so they are not having fun.

The case then goes to the ministerio publico's office to prepare a case file of the facts and documents to be presented to the judge for his (or her) final determination. Don't worry, it is usually within 72 hours. Now the judge, he will judge for all he's worth, he might make a straight ruling in line with the perito's determination, your insurance company posts your bond and you walk. He might award higher and your insurance would probably cover that as well. The judge might even be pissed at having his time wasted or if his grandfather's second cousin had a dispute with the victim's grandfather's brother in law, 94 years ago and it is listed in the family Bible, the judge might reduce the perito's award, you walk and the victim gets less than chump change and his family goes hungry.

It would seem the the "pastor" might not have been the brightest light bulb on the boat, was blinded by the light of heaven, received some bad advice and then ran into the problem of how do you obtain extra cash immediately, that even if your personal finances are not limited, it can be complicated getting sufficient amounts of money in a hurry if you want to go ahead and pay for a get out of jail card. Chances are he would have walked with minimal additional costs had he spent another 36 hours in jail. Jail can be an experience and one in Mexico might be a lot less comfortable than one in the U.S. You're guaranteed of meeting some interesting people and having stories for your grand children one day.

The word of advice from Margarita that she tells all her clients, she gives them a brochure of street signs and road regulations. Pay attention, your moment of inattention may correspond with someone else's gross negligence. Don't consume alcohol at all as even if the fault is with the other "party", if you have consumed any alcohol, that invalidates your insurance.

The blue moon witching hours pose a little extra risk as people are about to lose their appointed jobs and if ever their was a time to look for a little bonus pay......The outgoing administration will not be paying bonuses as had been hoped and often done previously. The new mayor is supposedly cutting his salary and the top salaries of the other highest paid people 20%.

You are in a different country in Mexico and at times another planet in Cozumel. They often cut tourists lots of slack, but let this be a brief lesson in basic law, Napoleonic Code, well that is the left over from when France ruled this country. My guess is that Louisiana (the only U.S. State) maybe Quebec, but even France has probably updated and far more modernized the law than Mexico. Being Americans does not give you special permits to act like idiots as is so commonly seen. Pay attention, drive responsibly and be ever vigilant, don't drink alcohol, (NO that is not an American right while on vacation to drink, get drunk and drive, which may come as a shock to many) and I wouldn't expect to have problems.

There's more I need to know to better understand what actually took place and why in the mentioned incident.
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#6 Charles

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:56 AM

This just keeps getting worse, the credibility factor is starting to plummet. I am still going to try to get to the bottom of it and see and report any true relevant findings. I am going to post a link and I ask you not to re-post it and spread it. This is garbage. This contradicts half the "facts" contained in the original blog post. Baptists should stick to theology issues and the True Bible KJV 1611 and stay out of pseudo journalism.

http://www.tulsaworl...371&archive=yes

This is written by their World Religion Writer This contradicts all previous claims and any and all confirmed facts. If you thought the original blog was good, wait till you see what some real sensationalism can add. They forgot that although he missed his ship sailing, once he was released, he put on his sandals and ran all the way across the Gulf to catch the ship when it docked. It is nut cases like this that give religion a bad name. Sorry if this offends, but it has gotten real offensive and damaging to the island. I wonder if Anne Harris would like to enlighten us to the facts.

One thing I hope gets gained from all this, it appears the island would do better with less people from Oklahoma and I used to know some wonderful people from and in Oklahoma. I used to always gas up in Oklahoma to avoid stopping in Texas, 176 miles across the panhandle. Now maybe we need a big public works project and build a giant land bridge that would stretch from Arkansas to New Mexico. And they used to have such nice rest stops, clean restrooms and quality tourism assistance in Oklahoma.

The killer part of the article says that he has since learned that the two men that he hit at 25 MPH, inflicting compound fractures to both men's right legs have been in four other accidents with American drivers. What a great scam, get compound fractures, collect $3,000 dollars in a scam. People will be jumping in front of cars and jeeps, use extra caution when driving, this new scam could sweep the island. What the Pastor said and wrote was bad enough, but once in the hands of their "world religion writer" the news story took on a whole new dimension.
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#7 Coz_Aholic

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 09:24 AM

Back to the insurance question. I know this was about 'rental insurance", but it makes me wonder about the insurance that people have on thier "resident" cars. Are lost wages covered in the regular policies now, or do we ALL have to stop driving on the Island?
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#8 Charles

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:16 PM

Back to the insurance question. I know this was about 'rental insurance", but it makes me wonder about the insurance that people have on thier "resident" cars. Are lost wages covered in the regular policies now, or do we ALL have to stop driving on the Island?


I don't know, I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. Margarita of Isis said nothing had changed and she knew little if anything of the recent events. Liability may be limited as employed people have coverage through IMSS, but as I stated, that is worthless and I don't know how a salary determination could be fairly determined from just looking at the papers from the last saldo, your official payroll for the quincena. If you get high percentage of income in tips and the tips are only real good for a few months, it is not fair for them to only receive base salary or a portion of base salary for two months at best of a four month high season.

Patricia, you're a nurse. Do you think a person would be fully recovered and ready to return to work in 30 days or less after a severe compound leg fracture? I don't know if this was a case of people seeking fair compensation, being greedy and hoping for a big pay out from a scared to death individual. I also wonder what role the victim's attorney had to play in the situation, were they present fairly protecting their client's rights and due process or were they manipulating the system and clients who might have fared very poorly had it continued on before a judge. Rental agencies according to Margarita are required to include liability and this would probably be the same type policy the average person would hopefully have on the island. When you have some kind of ties to the community, not even owning a home, you're more likely given more slack as they don't expect you to flee in the night leaving a trail of unpaid bills. When my wife was hospitalized, I just mentioned a couple of times I was prepared and able to pay the bills. If was finally after the third day I was asked if I could now pay a portion. I had been pulling my maximum daily from ATMs and had more than sufficient to pay the bill in full and did when they hoped I would pay 25% or perhaps half. I have heard of other supposed local homeowners that payment was demanded in advance and before leaving the medical facility. The only ID I carry is my laminated CURP card. That can pretty well document who I am and my entire history with the community and the country.

The liability would be the same type insurance coverage I believe for personal vs rental cars. I do hope this illustrates the need for insurance and you can't insure an illegal vehicle which is going to be big problems if you had an accident with no insurance and the vehicle itself was criminal. You'd be sitting in jail trying to figure how to get bailed out of both situations before your deportation.

My personal opinion is if you think you are insured and have been, you're probably OK, but it would be well worth talking to the insurance agency as to the extent of their coverage. In this "pastor" situation, his liability was fully prepared to pay all damages, medical costs and $300 dollars worth of pesos per person. The man offered $1,000 per person which was declined. He had trouble getting that much cash and it would have to be in pesos. Bill Gates could have problems getting immediately $75,000 pesos if he had a problem on the island. he like the "pastor" could have someone fly it is even faster.

The $1,000 dollars offered and declined, might or might not have been fair, but had the case progressed before a judge, I wonder if the family had been told by their legal representation, that not only might they receive only $300 dollars provided in the peritaje prepared by the perito, but the judge might take offence at being bothered and even award them less than what the law should provide. My opinion $300 was less than reality unless Patricia you think someone would be ready to go dancing 30 days after surgery to mend a compound fractured leg. A thousand dollars might have been realistically fair. I know many people that have received major personal injury settlements, including one for $6.5 million. Everyone of them would have gladly given all the money and more to never have suffered that injury. It is hard to compensate for loss and pain and suffering is not in this equation at all, much less what problems they may face in the future. It is pure compensation for the time lost from work and their official idea of cured and healed, might be quite different, less than fair. That waiter can work, just use one crutch to keep all the weight off that leg, carry the tray of food in the free hand. Balancing the food tray on his head, he could still serve people their plates with his free hand.

I found it personally offensive that the "newspaper" would then grossly sensationalize what the "pastor" had reported and then claim that they had worked this "scam" (that word wasn't used, but implied) four times previously by having accidents with Americans. Their fifth time they score big with dual compound fractured legs, that is a rough way to try to make a living.It seems that maybe nothing has changed in the law, but I don't know if the application or the manipulation for profit has changed. Was the lawyer involved totally legitimate or an ambulance chaser trying to take advantage of a situation that all involved may have lost on. Another 36 hours in jail and an appearance before the judge, the "pastor" probably would have been released and had no compensation to pay. If you could name your price, how much would you want for a compound fractured leg, how much would you want to spent a night in the real jail, not the holding tank and get to make new friends and acquaintances?
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#9 Coz_Aholic

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:42 PM

When you start talking compound fractures especially of the lower leg, you are looking at very long recovery periods. First of all in all likelihood there will be immediate surgery to nail or pin the bones. A definite period of total immobilization of several days to several weeks. Possibly also in traction. This is then followed by casting. Because of the bone having been exposed you are often looking at subsequent infection which can cause an untold amount of complications. The calcifications of healing really are not heavily evident for a minimum of 6 weeks in an adult. Full healing can be 18 months or longer depending on any complications. I would guess that a minimum of 6 weeks to return to a desk job with no weight bearing and only with no complications. I can't even begin to predict the length of time off for a waiter or someone needing to bear weight on that bone..again it will depend on quality of repair, ability to heal, and any complications involved.
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#10 Coz2wonder

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 03:09 PM

can you both stick to the primary subject and cut out all the not related topic stuff.

Also, could you cut it down to one or two paragraphs of CURRENT information?

Sorry Charles, I am truly not being rude to you...but you have found relevant information that is being lost in verbiage.
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#11 Coz_Aholic

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 03:25 PM

I was asked a question by Charles, which I answered, and actually I would think this is part of the topic.
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#12 Coz2wonder

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:04 PM

Charles, I truly hope you get down to the bottom line on an important subject for many folks...

Perhaps, Charles would have been better sending you a PM in regards to The DETAILS of compound fractures.

But, I really want to focus on the subject matter.

Perhaps this was part of the Fraud Net...
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#13 Charles

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:37 PM

I am seeking informed "facts" to state. The situation worsens from the Oklahoma end. Patricia just replied to about what I assumed, 30 days incapacity, $300 dollars unrealistic and even a $1,000 not overly generous. It appears that nothing is changed, but I want informed confirmation. I think the guy got caught up in a situation, received bad advice, lacked an advocate and the story goes viral. If anyone would care to contact and get input from Anne Harris, she should have first hand knowledge.

On a positive note, there should be significantly less rental cars on the road as people will be afraid to rent them. I think (solely my opinion) everyone local who has insurance should be fine, drive with extra precaution. Paula, if you are in contact with Gisela, she is someone with a widely respected opinion and command of the facts of law.
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:47 PM

Geez, this would surely put you of hiring a car if you feel some scumbag is gonna throw themselves in front of you purely for financial gain.
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#15 Coz2wonder

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:56 PM

I am not going to call my lawyer over this, it is not what I pay a retainer for to give away the information about what should be available when you rent a vehicle.

When you rent, ask if it covers ALL of your concerns.

Charles, as per your INFORMED FACTS...I had a compound fracture of my left leg...I did not walk again for 3 years...does that FIT with your information that you have received?

Just stick with with what the question was/is and find the correct answers.
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#16 Coz_Aholic

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 05:05 PM

I believe I gave quite a correct answer. As I noted, there can be complications and I just gave minimums. My Son was playing football the following season after a winter sking accident with a compond injury. There is no set in stone maximum healing time. In fact some may never fully recuperate from such an injury.
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#17 Coz2wonder

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 05:08 PM

CAN I, AND A NUMBER OF OTHERS FOLKS GET THE FACTS ON WHAT IS COVERED WHEN YOU RENT A VEHICLE IN COZUMEL..

NOTHING MORE.....

If the DIRECT answer is NOT available then I will go to Margarita tomorrow (she is the most popular) and ask the specific questions, and post the answers.

Nothing more.
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 06:39 PM

why can't these companies give a document pertaining to what is and is not covered,what you get told verbally may not be factual in the eyes of the law (and I use this term loosely).
I emailed Anne Harris on Saturday so if she comes back to me I will post.
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#19 captain ronald

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 08:31 AM

I really don't mind the history lessons and appreciate the effort Charles puts into it. If I get bored I just scan down to the next topic. I'm not going to loose a lot of sleep over this. When we go down this year I will set down with John at Less Pay and see what his take on it is. We will be renting as we have for the last 15 years. We do drive very carefully and usually park on one of the back streets and walk in town as the scooters bother me a bit. You always have to be extra careful on the old beach road. We usually see a accident there every year we come down. Enjoy!
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#20 DONO

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 09:43 AM

So much for my Oklahoma $$ being spent in Cozumel. I've seen some bad seeds in Cozumel but never associated them with all of Cozumel. For now I guess I'll assume all expat's in Cozumel are dicks!

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