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Another Moto Accident


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#21 nauticab

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 06:33 PM

i think you were the only person thinking i was referring to applying ice to the entire side of the victim. i said "apply ice immediately on the banged or bleeding spot", not to his whole side.
anyway, all is said and done.
be safe out there. you may be a perfectly good driver but someone may come along and not pay attention to YOU. i just saw another one today. it is getting ridiculous with moto accidents.
SLOW THE %*#& DOWN people, we live on an island.
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#22 morenita

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:52 PM

Like I said the only thing that got my attention was this one line:

3."GET ICE IMMEDIATELY! there was a restaurant right there with 30 people standing around and NO ONE asked for ice! this is basic first aid people. and the lady at the restaurant, watching this, took her own sweet time to get it. ARG! apply ice immediately on the banged or bleeding spot and the victim will be forever greatful."

"GET ICE IMMEDIATELY" to me implied that this is sort of the most important or the urgent thing to do at the time. Thats what immediately means to me. Maybe english is not my first language but I am pretty sure that is what immediately means. But actually, in a severe trauma situation with possible circulatory shock, internal bleeding and hypothermia, that should be the last thing on your mind. Once paramedics have been assured that none of these conditions existed, then to apply ice to a split lip was totally proper. The most important thing to do if you "have had lots of first aid training" was to monitor signs of shock and trauma, keep them warm, and calm and not to distract yourself by worrying about ice, especially since ice could have had a very negative affect.

And when you said "apply ice immediately", that "this is basic first aid People". That was incorrect. That should be the last thing you would do after you make sure that there is no trauma, and that they are not in shock. And this is very difficult to determine and not very obvious to the average observer. That was all I was trying to clarify from the very beginning. Like I said after the paramedics had cleared him I had no problem with ice being applied to a split lip. But you needed to clarify that up front. In a situation involving possible trauma and shock, ice should have been the last thing on your mind and not something to do immediately. That needed to be made crystal clear. That was why I went on and on and on about it. I was very concerned how someone reading your post would interpret what you said. I really felt with all my heart it was absolutely necessary to do.

You had said there were injuries to his "whole" face, shoulder, arm and knee. If not the entirety of ones side its certainly the majority of it. Then you said to apply ice to the banged or bleeding spot. How was I to understand you were only talking about the lip. I think any logically minded person could assume by banged and bleeding spots that you were refering to the spots that you had mentioned were banged and bleeding (face, shoulder, arm and leg). Seemed pretty clear to me. I was just saying that it needed to be made clear that this was not correct. Nor was ice the most important thing. En contrario. This was the least of his worries at the time. A little bruising and swelling is preferable to shock and death. Ice was never the most important thing nor the immediate thing to do, and if a person is in shock should NEVER be applied. If you had never included this one line than all would have been well. That entire sentence should have been left out. I am not really sure why you included it in the first place. Because anyone with the first aid training you said you have would know that this entire sentence is contrary to your first aid training.

Please do not infer that I am somehow less than intelligent by suggesting that I was the only one who interpreted what you said as what you actually said. I wanted to make sure that everything I posted is correct and that I was not in any way misinforming someone so I copied this thread to all my good Doctor friends. So if I am misinterpreting what you said than all my "english challenged" american Doctor friends are also. I believe I was interpreting it just as you said it. I and they found this single sentence to be very strange for someone who has "had lots of first aid training". It is not me misinterpreting what you said. This one line just does not seem right.
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#23 nauticab

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:16 AM

didn't even bother to read your newest book as it was repeating all you said before. ya. i restated my point, respect your input, and i think we all know that you have confirmed all your data and all your investigations with all your doctor friends and all your professors and have probably sent this thread to the new england journal of medicine and are sending the brigades to cozumel to prevent me from responding to a scene. (sorry, a little exaggerated but damn, you do have verbal diarrhea going on here)

if you are out in the wilderness and someone gets a deep cut, and you have no water but you have a can of dr pepper, that you should "clean" the wound with dr pepper then apply pressure? bet all your doctors would say OMG!!!! i am from the school of realistic first aid.
i also will treat a full blown sinus infection with homeopathic drugs (ACK OMG!!!!) and avoid antibiotics like the plague, AND it goes away within 3 to 4 days.
and i do nettle pots.
and i use organic salves for cuts and scrapes and don't get infections.
i have dealt with crashes (myself and others) from motos, bikes, skates for 40 years.
i do not know it all by any stretch of the imagination. i am NOT a doctor or a nurse, but i do have a medical background.
but when i see a busted lip or banged knee or what have you from a lucid person and i am pretty damn sure that this person is not in serious distress or shock, you are damn straight i will apply ice immediately. THAT is basic first aid.
please stop writing books. we got your point.
and to please you and hope to get you to stop, EVERYONE, FORGET MY INITIAL POST ON THIS THREAD. happy? damn.
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#24 nauticab

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:22 AM

carey, can you close this thread? i think we all got plenty of valuable medical info from morenita. i stand by my edited post of what i did and why and she agreed my actions were appropriate. she made it very clear that my inital post was poorly stated and possibly incorrect, depending on how it is interpreted. i just didn't feel like writing a complete novel about what i saw and give all the details. perhaps i should have. sorry everyone.
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#25 morenita

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 11:14 AM

In my second to last post, which was to be the last, I felt like enough had been said. Did not feel like there was any need for any further info. Only sent this thread to friends to confirm that I myself was not giving out any misinformation and for no other reason. And they sent me some studies and symposiums which I thought were excellent. When you have people in your life like this you are a very blessed person. I am taking a year off from school but I keep in constant contact with all my teachers. They send me on a regular basis studies, journals, publications and I could never thank them enough for their help and support. I thank God for these people in my life. They are such great individuals. Yes you did over react a little. It was never personal. If you read which was to be my last post you would have seen that I was very appologetic to you. I tried to be very nice to you, and complimented you as much as I could and commented on everything you did right.

I was perfectly content to leave it at that. I thought this thread was very valuable because of all the very valuable information and not because of me. I did not invent any of the science, or do any of the studies or research. I just passed on what I have been taught by some very wonderfull people. It is all the researchers in medicine who are to be praised.

While I may take exception to some of your personal practices like homeopathic medicine, to each is own. I do use a lot of natural cures. All medicines have basis in plants, herbs etc. As examlpe there are many very good things you can use in your diet for inflamation. In studies Ginger works great. In others Willow bark also works very well (this is where aspirin comes from). Some natural "salves" are great. Honey has been shown in some studies to be an excellent dressing for burns, and antibiotics are way overused. The more extensive the use the less effective they become. But in cetain situations are necessary. Homeopathic medicine, well that one Im not going to touch. And yes for a bruised knee or split lip ICE is basic first aid. I never said it was not. You just need to know if severe shock is a possibility it could kill them. That is and was allways my point. Everything you did was EXCELLENT! I only had a problem with the advise to others.

I do not think it is necessary to close it because this can be used to gain or pass valuable information. But that is just my opinion.

In my second to last post I was trying to close this up. I appologized, complimented you and was trying to be very nice. But you could not let it go. You had to keep it going and imply that only I interpreted what you said the way you wrote it. I took offense to that. Not personally but for friends who took it the very same way. I just wanted to correct that. It was unnecessary. I did not think that was appropriate nor were some of your most recent comments that were sarcastic and personal. You could have accepted all the compliments I gave you and left it at that. These comments did not bother me so much personally as what was an insult to friends of mine whose only desire is to help others and make their lives better. And they care enough to provide any information which could help someone here in Cozumel and have donated to the hospital here. So please do not mock this. It is not about you it is about helping others. I hope you can realize that. They read what you wrote the way you wrote it and the recent sarcasm is undeserved. These are terrific people who I respect and thank God for. I feel so blessed to have them in my life. Imagine doctors in the United States who take so much interest and support for a very young mexican woman, I am so grateful and I could never repay them for what they do. That is why I am so commited to being the best I can be. They have inspired me.

I was only trying to keep this medically related and appologized for and deleted the one inappropriate comment. I applauded you for stopping to help. I am gald you did and most of what you did was great. Actually probably everything you did was great, including applying ice to the split lip. I wanted you to know what you did was a very good thing and should be commended and encouraged. I would hope you will allways do the same. I am sure your actions were very helpful and the victim appreciated everything you did as well. Please understand in this situation everything you did was excellent and very helpful. Like I said I ONLY took exception to the one SINGLE part of advising others to apply ICE in a potential case of severe trauma. That was the ONLY issue. Everything you personally did was excellent. Bravo. And keep doing it.

Your insults do not bother me. Personally I could care less if you or any one else think I have "verbal diarhea". If I were writing in Spanish, which I would be much more comfortable in doing, I would be MUCH more succint. But in English I am not always sure when I have properly made my point. But that is my problem. I have seen threads gone on page after page after page here on a topic I thought was of no significant importance . This is very important to me. In Med school repetition is a good thing. The more you hear it the more it gets reinforced. That is probably why I repeat over and over again something that can save a life. Also why I repeated over and over what you did right. So there would be no doubt where I thought you actions were good. So insult me all you want I do not care. I only post info for anyone who might choose to read it. You do not have to read anything you don't want to. No one is forcing you. Please do not read if you are not interested. This was important enough to me to take the time to respond because I truly care about people and do not want to see anyone un-necessarily harmed. That was all this was about. It is not about you, It is not about me. It is about helping others. Nothing more nothing less. I do not care about others opinion of me. I am an intelligient and caring person and I like who I am. That is enough for me. Personslly I think I have good information to offer. If Carey decided what I write is not important or does not want me posting she could prevent me from doing so. I respect her opinion. But as long as I am permitted to do so I will post when I think it is helpfull.

I will add to the defense of many that medicine is constantly changing. What we thought was correct procedure a few years ago may no longer be advisable. It is allways changing. An example is CPR. The technique has changed several times over the years and the debate continues as opposed to compression only or combined with breathing. And the rate of compression has evolved. Recently I was speaking with a very good doctor friend in Cozumel, whom I really respect. But he had no idea that the proper way to wrap an injury was from proximal to distal. I am not sure why except to say that medicine is changing, evolving and expanding. And that is good. It can be overwhelming to keep up with. That is why I read anything I get get.

If people really wanted to make a difference they could speak out more about transporting babies and very small children on motos. It is against the law in all of Mexico. It is prohibited. But for reasons "economically" it is not enforced here in Cozumel. That is very sad. Anyone could leave something out of their shopping cart (Coca Cola, cerveza, etc) to pay for taking the bus or even a taxi.

In closing I will only say this

ICE IS BASIC FIRST AID for bruising and swelling. PLEASE apply! but if shock is present ICE CAN KILL.

Remember Call for help. For the passerby with little or no first aid training but wants to help. Keep them calm, warm, and do not move. Keep their mind off the accident and injuries and on other things.

I hope someone took away from this good information on how to respond in the case of an accident where severe trauma could result. And with all the motorcycle accidents this very valuable. I believe enough has been said here and nothing more needs to be said.
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#26 Carey

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 01:57 PM

I would like to weigh in and thank both of you dear, caring women for so thoroughly dealing with such an important subject. Nauticab -- thanks for calling to our attention yet another moto accident which also brought to light all sorts of stuff I didn't know about the Good Samaritan laws in Mexico. Thanks also to Morenita for going the distance to be completely sure we all understand what we should -- and shouldn't do if we witness or, god forbid, are in an accident.

I disagree with people who think Morenita went overboard in sounding the alarm. And I think she was gracious in apologizing if she came off as being harsh and personally condemning or judgemental. I don't think she was. She just felt a strong and urgent need to get out important information and I for one am very glad she did so.

Nauticab is a heroine also for saving the victim from getting a giant, swollen lip and just being willing to help when lot of other people wouldnt

So thanks all round for a good thread and here's to both of you, Ladies.

Now I'm going to start a new thread so we can talk about how to deal with jellyfish stings.
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#27 morenita

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:19 PM

Thank you so much Carey. And I do want to "re-emphasize" to nauticab what you did was great. Thank you for stopping, and helping. After explaination, you actions were excellent. You did all the right things. Bravo. I hope you will always stop to help. Anyone involved in an accident should be so lucky.

I tend to get carried away about things I care about passionately. You definitely don't want to get involved with me arguing politics. I can go on for hours. Hahahaha

As for Jelly fish sting. Vinegar. No alcohol, hydrogen peroxide or ammonia and God forbid do not pee on it. These can release more toxins. Vinegar is great. If stung in the ocean do not rinse with fresh water (agua dulce). You can rinse with salt water. But vinegar is very effective. I take it with me diving. Its cheap and effective.

If you want me to discuss how to remove the nematocysts I can. But caution needs to be applied so you do not get affected yourself.
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#28 MarkC

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:42 PM

doesn't pee work if you have nothing else? lol
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#29 morenita

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 02:47 PM

I get the joke Marc. But in reality urine can release more toxin. It is a common folk lore. But what would work better if you are away from a doctor and have no vinegar is to rinse with salt water if you are stung in the ocean. Not fresh water. If it happened in salt water rinse with salt water. I have heard hot water recommended but the studies are not really clear on that. From everything I have read this is not recommended. And definitely DO NOT RUB OR APPLY ICE. Sorry about the "ice" here but its true. I have also read that you can remove the tentacles by shaving the area after applying baking soda paste. But I would recommend having a doctor do this. Because you will probably not have baking soda on the boat. But I would recommend carrying a gallon bottle of vinegar on the boat. It can never hurt.
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#30 nauticab

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:48 PM

since we have man o war's here, found this tidbit interesting: finishing a dive i was stung in the face and arm and used, hmmm, homeopathic healing salve to cure it while the other guy with vinegar did not get any relief and remained very swollen and red on his leg. now i know why.
"A word of caution about vinegar: Studies suggest that vinegar actually worsens the pain of Portuguese Man of War, bluebottle, and other Physalia stings. These creatures are dangerous look-alikes to jellyfish. Vinegar has been shown to cause nearly 30% of Physalia nematocysts to fire."

so make sure you know your jellyfish before you apply the vinegar. and (sorry, i can't resist) DO NOT APPLY ICE. :)
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#31 bulsaros

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:54 PM

scratch ! scratch ! scratch ;-)
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#32 morenita

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 03:59 PM

Nauticab you are absoluteley correct. My advise was for a Jellyfish sting to use vinegar. The small thimble jellyfish we get here. Portuguese Man o War is not a Jelly fish, it is a colony. No vinegar no ice for Man o War. With Man o War rinse with sea water and in my opinion see a doctor. I realize you recovered on your own. But Man o War can potentially be more severe. I still hear people recommend hot water but any recent studies I have seen strongly discourage this.

Jellyfish: rinse with sea water, vinegar, if necessary see a doctor

Man o War: rinse with sea water and see a doctor.
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#33 nauticab

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:10 PM

we DO have them here. believe me, i was stung, in the face. i have seen many times floating in cozumel waters, they are just smaller than the monsters we hear about. very pretty though. just not on the face.
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#34 morenita

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:21 PM

I hope you did not think I was saying we do not have Man o War here, however I have not seen one. Sorry if you thought I was saying that. I was only commenting on treatmnet of the small thimble Jellyfish and Man o War are not Jellyfish. For Man o War no vinegar. But from my experience it works good for the jellyfish we get here.
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#35 nauticab

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:32 PM

ok... for most folks, man o war's fall into the "jellyfish" category so wanted to clarify my post. thought you were saying they are not here. i have seen some pretty big regular jellies too, over a foot in diameter, not just the thimbles. getting to be that time!!!!

avoiding thimble jelly stings.... wear a long sleeve rash guard or wetsuit AND slather your neck and wrists with vaseline or sunscreen (vaseline is better). not 100% effective but works quite well in preventing them, especially when snorkeling. i attract them like flies to honey. andantol helps relieve the itch too, cheap and available everywhere.
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#36 morenita

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 04:52 PM

No problem. That is a common misunderstanding about Man O War. It is a colony, a different animal. I was not commenting on Man O War because I have not read enough studies on them. Except to know that Vinegar is not effective.

The venom of a Jellyfish is a protein. The way to de activate it is to change the temperature or to alter the ph. This can be done with an acid ( vinegar) or base ( baking soda) Benadryl and meat tenderizer have also been suggested. But I have not read any research on either of those. Except to suggest that meat tenderizer has a chemical found in Papaya (don't remember the name) which in certain studies has also shown to be somewhat effective. And Benadryl I assume has been somewhat effective due to an alergic reaction to the toxin. But personally I beleive that going the way of applying something acidic works best (vinegar). Have not read enough research on the others. Especially if you can soak the area in it as opposed to just a topical application (baking soda paste). Heat will also help. And a doctor may apply heat to the area. This is why some suggest hot water, but from everything I have read it is the fresh water itself that can release more toxin. Theoretically hot sea water should work extremely well, but I would need to research that one some more. But it sort of sounds good to me. And I might try it on myself to see what effect it has as opposed to vinegar. Or hot sea water followed by vinegar. Maybe I could try that.

Andantol, Isotipendilo, is a antihistamine(antihistaminico). Probably does the same thing as benadryl which is to give some comfort to any alergic reaction to the venom

And we can just agree to disagree on the homeopathy. Not going to touch that one.
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#37 Spencer

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:12 PM

Hello all, I am learning a lot from this thread and had one more question, I have heard of seasafe to protect from "sea lice" but it is sometimes hard to find, are there alternatives?

Thanks and Gracias
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#38 Coz2wonder

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:36 PM

okay, got the vinegar part, but which vinegar...white, apple cider, rice...or does it matter.

In spite of the little dust up, very valuable information.

Just an FYI from my ancient nurses training, I only use a compress that is a few degrees below body temperature... especially if it's a burn.
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#39 nauticab

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:43 PM

all of the docs i have seen here in cozumel, and i mean ALL of them, agree that homeopathic is the best way to go if you can find it. there is quacky stuff out there, just like some herbal blends. but when you deal with homeopathics blended by the docs and pharmacists from the shanghai institute of chinese medicine, you are getting the "buds" and not the "shake". (a select few will totally appreciate that analogy!)

we can agree to disagree, but maybe you might consider to open your studies to their proven effectiveness for many more years than "conventional" drugs.
we have an excellent homeopathic doc here, dr. lozano (i am quite sure that is his name). i have gone to him but i use my blends i have used for years with incredible success. no side effects either.
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#40 morenita

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 05:47 PM

Just your cheapest white vinegar in a gallon jug in Chedraui. The only thing you are trying to do is alter the Ph level of the toxin which is a protein. Diluted ammonia has also been recommended however in most recent studies it has also been discouraged. You raised a very good topic. How cold is cold enough. I could email an entire study I read on that. It is an excellent point, and the research is extremely interesting.
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