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#41 nauticab

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 10:42 AM

cvchief, i used to work for the company and am more than well aware of the lawsuits.... vitasalus is the sole distributor, not the manufacturer of the stuff. there are very clear rules as to what you can say and not say regarding homeopathy and herbal remedies. but some people in the company still say the wrong stuff and it falls to the owner who has to pay the price.
hundreds of pyramid companies got in trouble for high level folks saying stupid things about their prodcuts that have been clearly explained by the owner to NOT say for the very same reason you state. herbalife suffered the same. most all have. herbalife makes decent products too. there are some great people in some MLM companies. unfortunately the few idiots are the ones who can taint a good thing. vitasalus is NOT an MLM, just had it's roots there.

so while the way things were said by SOME people in the company, the product is still the best stuff i have ever tried.

i think for the sake of this discussion, separating the two and keeping the effectiveness of a given product the focus would be prudent. otherwise an ugly can of worms will open.

morenita, where in cozumel can you buy this organic shampoo?
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#42 cvchief

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:09 PM

Nauticab,

I did not read anything about any thing but cancer cures. The lawsuit listed Vitalus as a company selling cancer remedies and saying unproven things about their ability to cure cancer on their sales website . Vitalus apparently agree to remove those claims, provide refunds and pay a large fine that had been somewhat reduced because of the companies financial status. It was part of the whole apricot seed thing, I think?

As you say, the ONLY thing I saw mentioned there were the cancer cures as that was the focus of the FTC investigation.

That being said, if my grocer sold me one bad product he claimed was good, I would be much more skeptical of other products he also claimed were good.
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#43 morenita

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 01:21 PM

Chief the thing they are not supposed to "say" is that it is a cure or remedy

This is the disclaimer that is to be included on the product:

-These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.
This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

If you go to the web site for vitasalus that Nauticab listed for the sale of these products you will notice this disclaimer. Not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.


These statements are from the first web site Nauticab references to find information about homeopathy. This is straight from the CAM webpage.



-Most analyses have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition


-Most homeopathic remedies are so dilute that no molecules of the healing substance remain


-Homeopathic products contain little or no active ingredients, they do not have to undergo the same safety and efficacy testing as prescription and new OTC drugs.


-Most analyses of the research on homeopathy have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition


-Homeopathy is a controversial area of CAM because a number of its key concepts are not consistent with established laws of science
(particularly chemistry and physics).


-Critics think it is implausible that a remedy containing a miniscule amount of an active ingredient (sometimes not a single molecule of the original
compound) can have any biological effect—beneficial or otherwise.


-Do not use homeopathy as a replacement for proven conventional care or to postpone seeing a doctor about a medical problem.

Homeopathy is nothing more than water, "magic water" that remembers what was once in it before it was diluted to the point that not a single molecule exists.

These are facts, and that is the science. You are buying water, "magical water" and nothing more. Water which they are selling ( depending on the dilution rate for hundreds of dollars per liter ).

If you believe it works for you that is GREAT

The problem is to encourage someone else to buy something that has no ability to cure except for the "placebo effect" , and to delay other proven cures for an illness, while beleiving they are being cured by water. Like they say in the webpage for CAM, that Nauticab references, "do not use homeopathy as a replacement for proven conventional care or to postpone seeing a doctor about a medical problem".

The web site Nauticab lists does not deny, but confirms that there are no measurable molecules of any ingredient except water.

There is no scientific dispute that it is, and only is, water. The only debateable point is if you beleive, as does homeopathy, that the water has a memory of what used to be in it, and if that "memory" can cure anything, as they claim. There is little discussion, in the scientific community, as to the effectiveness of any ingredients in Homeopathy. That is because all science, chemistry and physics says they do not exist and cannot be measured, so they cannot be tested. Can't test that which dosn't exist. Homeopathy agrees they do not exist. They claim the water remembers them. That requires alot of faith.

And you will hear no debate from the scientific community that homeopathy is unsafe, because it is not. Water ( clean water) to my knowledge will not harm you. They all agree it has no harmfull effects. IT WILL NOT HARM YOU, but it will not cure you either.

The problem is putting off another effective cure for a major illness. That is why the OTC sale is still allowed for what the FDA has determined to be illnesses which will normally go away on their own with or without medicine. Just like an over the counter cold medicine not requiring a prescription.

In a very few products they are diluted with alcohol but the FDA has determined that the dose is so significantly low and so far have made no decision to regulate it.

One other point to add is that Homeopathy is not regulated like normal medications. It has a special preference because some 50 or more years ago someone ( do not know the name ) in the Congress or the Senate ( not sure which ) of the United States was a salesman for the product and got special legislation passed to include it along with cosmetics. Attempts have been made to change that but there is allot of pressure against it from large corporations making millions of dollars every year selling very expensive "water".

Remember from the movie: "solylet green (sp) is people"

Well

HOMEOPATHY IS WATER

Applying the same theory of infinitesimals it would be more plausible for me to make the claim that with every breath I take I am brething in the essence of the same
air that Jesus breathed.

Hopefully some will find this informative
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#44 cvchief

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 06:34 PM

Morenita,

You just failed on the "I promise not to comment' part..... ;)

On the other hand, I WISH I had bought stock in Smiling Bob. That is a company that was rolling in the cash. I mean until they went to jail. That guy made like 500 Million on that in just a couple years. He is now doing 25 years in the pokey, which is a bit of a drawback.

I guess they are still selling it though with some relabeling. Mark: are you still getting yours?:P


Still with any of it, I still think who cares as long as you aren't using the stuff to avoid a legitimate and needed treatment. Like taking some herb for high blood pressure and thinking even though your BP didn't go down you are OK. If you take some stuff for allergies or sinuses or whatever, you think it helps, and you are pretty sure it doesn't have harmful stuff in it, then who cares. Go to it.

When colds and such hit our house, the wife breaks out the lemon balm tea. Supposedly there are studies that it is antiviral and other good stuff. We make tea with the whole leaves we picked in the summer so we actually know what is in it. Does it work? Heck if I know, but I like tea when I am sick so I don't care one way or the other.

Another one is her family's 'recipe' Supposedly an old home remedy passed down to them by a pediatrician. Equal parts honey, lemon juice and vodka. Mix well. Serve a shot. Well you know honey is supposed to fix everything and all. Does it work? Heck if I know, but if I drink enough I at least don't care so much about being sick.

I hope I didn't come across disrespectful to your opinions, Nauticab. If it works for you, who are we to raise an objection right?
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#45 morenita

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:01 PM

Chief. I agree with everything you said. Absolutely.

Regarding the broken promise, perdoname!

You are right it is a broken promise. I tried so hard not to state any opinion. And I took all the attacks on proven modern medicine, without comment. But it was so hard to resist. With the exception of only a few slight comments I tried to stick with facts and science. Everything I said about it being water is a FACT. One that is confirmed by the article Nauticab refered to. And supported by the original founder. They admit there are no molecules of any active ingredients left. It is water. They claim, however, that the water has a memory of what was once in it.

So it would also have the memory of anything that ever came into contact with it. This gives me horrible thoughts any time I flush a toilet. But not to worry because this is totally unsubstantiated by science.

With that logic you are never drinking purified water. Because if you have removed every harmful substance from the water and it can be tested to show no prescence of any harmful chemicals or impurities. It will still remember what was in it.

The products can be tested to show only water molecules being present. You cannot test for a memory.

If you take it and beleive it works. Great. I would just not recommend against taking treatment that is proven to work. If you really want to try Homeopathy in the case of a serious illness go ahead and take it along with a proven medication or treatment. Then it is up to you to as to which one really worked.

Just like I would be opposed to a parent witholding needed medicine from a child with a terminal illness because they believe in faith healing. Give the child his medicine and continue praying.

What makes me laugh is that these companies selling these products also sell water purification products. This would be completely hypocritical and a total contradiction.

If the "medicine" they are selling has the memory of the original active ingredients even though they are not present. Than no matter what you do to remove any impurities from the water you drink they will still exist "in Memory"

From a very good article I read:

Hahnemann ( the inventor ) himself realized that there is virtually no chance that even one molecule of original substance would remain after extreme dilutions. But he believed that the vigorous shaking or pulverizing with each step of dilution leaves behind a "spirit-like" essence—"no longer perceptible to the senses"—which cures by reviving the body's "vital force." Modern proponents assert that even when the last molecule is gone, a "memory" of the substance is retained. This notion is unsubstantiated. Moreover, if it were true, every substance encountered by a molecule of water might imprint an "essence" that could exert powerful (and unpredictable) medicinal effects when ingested by a person.

To paraphrase in very simple terms. The more you weaken or dilute and active ingredient the more powerful or effective it becomes. And if you weaken or dilute this active ingredient to the point it no longer exists then its memory remains. And that memory is what gives you the healing powers. It defies all science, chemestry and physics.
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#46 MarkC

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 09:47 AM

On the other hand, I WISH I had bought stock in Smiling Bob.

I guess they are still selling it though with some relabeling. Mark: are you still getting yours?:P


LMFAO - I had never heard of smiling bob, i had to google it - thats freaking funny!

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