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Bug Spray Do Not Use Deet


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#1 Coz_Aholic

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:10 PM

"Understand DEET and its potential side effects: Yes, DEET is the most widely-known bug-repelling ingredient, but also the most extreme. It was developed by the Army during World War II, and intended for use in jungle warfare. Initially DEET was tested as a pesticide. While percentages under 30% are deemed safe by the EPA, there have been studies that show if you spray on too much or too often it can be absorbed into your blood stream, causing everything from neurological damage to seizures. Uh, yikes."

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#2 morenita

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:52 PM

DEET is the most widely used repellent and approved by the EPA and recommended by the World Health Org. and the Center for Disease Control for the best prevention of malaria, west nile and dengue. The studies you reference are very inconclusive. There are many more studies touting the safety of DEET. When weighing the risk and potential problems with contracting dengue I would use DEET any day.

This was all debated some time ago in another thread. No reason to debate it again here. Many studies were mentioned in this earlier thread. DEET is safe and very effective. The most effective repellent is existence. There are others which have shown effectiveness and were also discussed. But DEET is the best and most effective remedy against dengue.

DEET has shown mild toxicity in 1 out of 100 million uses. The effectiveness against dengue outweighs the risk by about 100 million times. Natural oils and treatments have shown a higher percentage of skin irritation. Oils evaporate quickly and need to be applied as often as every half hour. This was discussed before in another thread.
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#3 Coz2wonder

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:58 PM

I think if the article was read completely, you would have found the following disclaimer at the end stating: 'CORRECTION: An earlier version of this post suggested a directly causal link between DEET and health risks. The EPA believes data is currently insufficient to establish DEET as the cause of the reported effects'

I will follow the CDC on their recommendations in regards to Deet.

It works, it is effective and has proven over many studies to be so.

If you have a concern, then don't use it.
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#4 artgirl

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:16 PM

Deet is disgusting. However, the alterative is worse. Having been almost carried off when beaching it at sunset on the island, regular bug spray and homeopathic oils/lotions just doesn't cut it in my opinion. I'm willing to risk using it when the skeeters are out in full force down there. It's nearly impossible to enjoy yourself while on vacation when being swarmed. Up here where I live.. the milder bug repellents do the trick, but you all have some kind of super duper, blood sucking, disease carrying mongrolesque type moscas that leave welts on me for days. No one wants to spread poison on their skin, but I think I'm with Morenita and Paula on this one.
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#5 J belle

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:27 PM

I would so take my chances with DEET over dengue any day . Hey, what we get in Coz is pretty mild. When in the far North of Quebec province in Canada we were under serious attack by mutant killer Mosquitos and horse flies and went racing to the drug store in the tiny little village. We were astonished to see that the only DEET spray they had was 95 PERCENT CONCENTRATION. We bought it and it worked darn well! I wasn't real sure we wouldn't have been arrested at the border if we'd tried to bring it back into US however.
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#6 morenita

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:42 PM

Many of the botanical oils fared no better than vegetable oil in controled laboratory tests ( New England Journal of Medicine). And a soybean based formula did slightly better. They work because they create a barrier. But the problem is that they evaporate quickly. Many need to be reapplied as often as 20 minutes to an hour. DEET is definitely the most effective in any situation and a 25% solution will last up to six hours. There is nothing better! When faced with the possibility of getting dengue I prefer to use the most proven and effective repellent you can buy and that is DEET. There is nothing else even close.

The fact is there have been many more cases of reported mild to severe skin irritation from natural botanical oils than have ever been reported using DEET. DEET has shown mild toxicity in 1 in 100 Million uses.
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#7 nauticab

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:27 PM

i agree with folks to choose what works. and while this is a product i sell in my store, i promote it because i personally use it and had great success. my son and i were covered with it and no bites all last dengue season. with only one application in the morning and one in the evening.
it is a biodegradeable natural based repellent (also available with sunscreen, SPF30), and for me, kept just as many bugs away from me as autan.
if you are interested, we have both versions (with or without sunscreen) in the store.
http://www.tropicals...kcountry-spf-30
http://www.tropicals...ntry-expedition
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#8 morenita

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:53 PM

Reef Safe is citronella oil based product. In some studies it has shown some effectiveness. But for no more than 20 to 30 minutes max. And it is very expensive when you consider you need to reapply it every half hour. And no more effective than cooking oil. And soybean based formulas were slightly more effective in tests. Not sure where you come up with once in the morning and once later on in the evening. If you read the literature from the website you listed you would see it says that it only provides short term protection. Certainly not all day until the evening. You would have to be crazy if you only applied it to your son twice a day. I really can't believe that to be true.

While citronella oil is generally considered to be safe there are more documented cases of mild to severe skin irritation with the the use of citronella oil and other botanical oils than in fifty years of DEET. You only hear of scary reports of the dangers of DEET in these obscure articles who are trying to sell snake oil (botanical oils). They have very little effectiveness and for a very very short duration.

DEET is one of the most widely tested and proven effective and safe products on the market. There is NOTHING better or safer. The scare tactics work because it has a somewhat chemical odor and a scary name "DEET". But it does work to sell alot of very marginally effective alternative oils and herbs. But the truth is there is nothing safer or more effective than DEET.

Most all reported incidents from DEET were from people taking it internally or using it improperly. Many things will have harmfull effects when taken internally including citronella oil.

As I have said many times when it comes to the risk of getting dengue I want the most proven effective and safe thing I can buy. And that is without any doubt DEET.

It is recomended by the World Health Organization, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, the EPA and every major medical journal.

I also agree with "folks" to choose. But what I object to is missinformation. There is no other product which is safer or more effective. This has been proven over and over again through fifty years of research. Yet someone else always comes along trying to sell another oil or herb claiming they work, however marginally or for whatever brief period of time.

Personally I do not want to see anyone in the Hospital because they actually read somewhere were someone was promoting a product that is well known to have nowhere near the effectiveness of DEET and as a result gets very sick from dengue and could even die. If you want to use your oils go right ahead. It is your own choice but don't try to sell them to others and putting them at risk when you have no facts or studies to back you up. This may sound harsh but it's the truth.

I say the same thing to my fellow Mexicans who use the alcohol, cloves and baby oil mixture. The alcohol evaporates very quickly. The baby oil serves as a very short term barrier. In studies clove oil has had some short term effect. But in a diluted state there is no real evidence it has much affect. And it is not recommended to apply clove oil directly to the skin. Use what has been proven to be the safest and most efective. DEET!

Stop putting yourself at risk. Use DEET.

If you want to protect yourself from the dangers of dengue. Use DEET and not any of these other so called remedies. NOTHING is better or safer.

I am very adamant about this because dengue is a very serious health risk and I hate seeing a pregnant mom or a child or an elderly person die from it. Use what is been proven for more than fifty years to be the most effective. And stop using these other so called remedies which are marginally effective. DEET is the best. The toxicity effect is one in 100 million. The benefits significantly outweigh any risk. It is very safe!

Note: A higher concentration of DEET has more to do with how long it is effective before having to reapply. A 20% to 25% concentration is very effective and will last for hours and safe for children and infants over two months. Follow directions when using. Do not apply to the hands of children and do not let them apply it themselves. Keep away from eyes, mouth and nose.
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#9 MarkC

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

I regularly put deet into my margaritas... The long term effects have been amazing.
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#10 crunch

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:28 PM

Is that what i have been doing wrong mark? Ok, next year it goes in my margarita!
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#11 ccannon707

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:43 PM

I have found Autan Mosquito Repellent in Cozumel and PdC and it works well for me. I have used the cream and the spray. I was told by a German gal that products with DEET are not allowed to be sold in Europe but products with the active ingrediant in Autan are allowed.
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#12 morenita

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:50 PM

I had heard something about that but have not ever confirmed it. From what I remember it had alot to do with the fact that IR3535 is an alternative repellent manufactured by the German pharmaceutical company Merk who was pushing for a ban on DEET. I had also metioned this product in an earlier post. It has shown some effectiveness in studies. But in a study done by the New England Journal of Medicine it only showed to be effective for around 20 minutes compared to around 300 minutes for DEET. There is no test that I have ever seen which shows anything to be as effective as DEET with the possible exception of Icardin. But that is still a matter of debate.

DEET is in use all around the world and recommended by the World Health Organization. It is the best repellent for mosquitos with Icardin being a possible close or distant second depending on which study you read. But Icardin does not have nearly the amount of testing that DEET has gone through. This was all discussed in a previous thread. Autan uses both in their products. They have some repellents with DEET and some with Icardin. Autan with DEET is a good product. DEET is of course very effective and Icardin has been shown effective in some studies. I would however be more inclined to use the Autun product that contains DEET because it has been more thoroughly tested and proven safe and effective.

There are many myths about DEET. That it should not be used in higher concentrations than 10% with children and not for infants. The American Academy of Pediatrics has changed their recommendations to a 30% concentration for children and recommend its use for infants over 2 months old. I have not found a case that any nuerological disorder has been associated with DEET. Not saying there is not one. If anyone can find a specific case I would like to read about it. There were six cases with children but DEET was not to be found culpable. Two percent of children will have a siezure before age 10. And thousands of other products could have caused the siezures. DEET could not be isolated as the cause from any other chemicals in use. Other instances of illness were from ingesting it or improper use. If it really were what the critics claim then with 8 billion uses world wide for over fifty years we would certainly see some conclusive evidence. But there is none. On the contrary it has been proven to be very safe. And definitely effective.

Also do not forget to get rid of any standing water. It is not sufficient to just empty water out of containers. They must be washed and cleansed to dislodge the eggs. Diligence is very important.

Bug lights do not work and have shown to actually attract and kill more beneficial insects. And in fact they may actually attract more mosquitos than are killed by the device.


From the New England Journal Of Medicine

DEET-based products provided complete protection for the longest duration. Higher concentrations of DEET provided longer-lasting protection. A formulation containing 23.8 percent DEET had a mean complete-protection time of 301.5 minutes. A soybean-oil–based repellent protected against mosquito bites for an average of 94.6 minutes. The IR3535-based repellent protected for an average of 22.9 minutes. All other botanical repellents we tested provided protection for a mean duration of less than 20 minutes. Repellent-impregnated wristbands offered no protection.
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#13 MarkC

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

Is that what i have been doing wrong mark? Ok, next year it goes in my margarita!



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#14 cvchief

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 03:35 PM

Apparently Autan uses Icardin. According to wiki, it isn't that great for the dengue mossies?

Swiped from Wiki:

The name picaridin was proposed as an International Nonproprietary Name (INN) to the World Health Organization (WHO), but the official name that has been approved by the WHO is icaridin. The compound was developed by the German chemical company Bayer and was given the name Bayrepel. In 2005, Lanxess AG and its subsidiary Saltigo GmbH were spun off from Bayer[1] and the product was renamed Saltidin in 2008.[2]

Picaridin, first used in Europe in 2001, has been reported to be effective by Consumer Reports (7% solution)[6] and the Australian Army (20% solution).[7] Consumer Reports retests in 2006 gave as result that a 7% solution of picaridin offered little or no protection against Aedes mosquitoes (vector of dengue fever) and a protection time of about 2.5 hours against Culex (vector of West Nile virus), while a 15% solution was good for about one hour against Aedes and 4.8 hours against Culex.[8] Natrapel 8 hour is a 20% based picaridin repellent that claims to be effective for 8 hours.
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#15 Tomas

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:56 PM

You want to use DEET if you want to avoid being a pincusion, it's that simple.
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#16 nauticab

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:25 PM

i apply the reef safe repellent twice a day with success. no bites all of last year. the mosquitos are not active during the daytime, only at sunrise and sunset (with a few in between of course). so why would one reapply all day long unless they were in the mangroves or deep woods all day????
so, again morenita, i used it and continue to use it with GREAT SUCCESS and again, you choose to discredit me. it works. it may not work for all, but it works DAMN well for me and my whole family. in fact, as good as, if not better than, popular deet products. i prefer to use the natural, against all of the research you continue to throw at us (some good, some terribly repetitive and one sided).
my personal "studies" of deet products left nothing better than my reef safe products. i stand behind them. i see people using "fly away" and the cr*p ATTRACTS the mosquitos on my skin. absolutely worthless. i have used off and they land right on me and bite. autan works for a bit, but i always have to reapply.
the reef safe works, has been tested on mosquito infested areas for more than 20 minutes with no bites, and yes, morenita, i protect the hell out of my kid and my family and if there are more mosquitos, i apply a bit more, but better yet, go inside. just like everyone else does with their product of choice. and considering we as a family go thru one bottle every 6 weeks to 2 months, AND use it as sunscreen during the day (and since i train for ironman, i am in the sun for hours daily), at $12 a bottle, it is very cheap. so get YOUR facts straight. it is NOT expensive to reapply.
"It is your own choice but don't try to sell them to others and putting them at risk when you have no facts or studies to back you up. This may sound harsh but it's the truth. "
i am NOT putting people at risk. i am doing a SERVICE providing people an option that has worked for me and many others for more than a year since we brought this product to the island. plus, i don't get a sunburn with it therefore preventing sun cancer to boot.
stop insinuating that i am putting my kid at risk for dengue by using something that i found success that happens to NOT be deet. we lost a teacher at my kid's school last september. believe me, it is close to my heart.

on another note, my friend mentioned of a friend who got bit using anything and everything and claimed that her doctor told her to drink a teaspoon of white vinegar daily. she never got bit again.
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#17 cvchief

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 07:50 AM

Isn't science wonderful? No one ever completely agrees. According to the cites on wiki, citronella works well and with the dengue mossies, but requires reapplication, maybe as much every 30 to 60 minutes? Even Reefsafe's site says short term protection. It is nice that it is all environmentally friendly. And even though citronella is all natural, apparently there are some ban on it being sold as a repellent in Europe, but you can buy citronella as perfume. Odd... http://ec.europa.eu/...nment/biocides/
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#18 morenita

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:10 AM

"the mosquitos are not active during the daytime, only at sunrise and sunset (with a few in between of course). so why would one reapply all day long unless they were in the mangroves or deep woods all day????"

Absolutely false. Check you facts. You are totally wrong and uninformed on this.

This is from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention

Be aware of peak mosquito hours. The peak biting times for many mosquito species is dusk to dawn. However, Aedes aegypti (dengue)mosquitos feeds during the daytime. Take extra care to use repellent and protective clothing during daytime as well as during the evening and early morning.



I will repeat Reef Safe (citronela oil) has been thoroughly tested and has been shown to have very little effect at repeling mosquitos. I will trust the New England Journal of Medicine and fifty years of research over your personal field studies any day. The dengue mosquitos bite during the day and in certain conditions most other mosquitos bite during the day as well like shaded areas and cloudy days etc. So if you are only applying repellent to your son inthe morning and night you are putting him at risk. Citronela oil in the best studies has shown to be effective for 20 mins. But so has cooking oil. If you are intent on not using DEET, the best product on the market, you would be better off with putting on soybean oil than Reef Safe. It works about 4 and 1/2 times longer in studies. Reef Safe is pretty much a waste of money and does very little to repel mosquitos.

You can use any sun block with DEET just apply it first. And then apply DEET over it after a few minutes.

I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt thinking that you would read the directions on any product you were using and selling. It states that it provides short term protection. And once in the morning and once at night would not be sufficient. If I had a child I would use DEET if they were at school during the day when the mosquitos (that carry dengue) are biting knowing that I am giving them the best protection I possibly could from dengue. Citronella oil is not very effective. Regardless of what you think your own personal experience shows. And if you are selling it you should at least give people the facts and let them know that in the best case they would need to reapply every 20 minutes. You are selling a very inferior product that has very little effectiveness and you should inform anyone buying it that it provides at best very short term protection. I could never in good concious ever sell such a product.

You can mock the studies all you want. But these studies are conducted by some very smart people. And I trust them. I have been reading the New England Journal of Medicine for years and I trust them. As well as all the other studies. I have my facts. What facts or studies are you basing your knowledge on?

And in my opnion you are putting people at risk selling a product and giving them a sense of false security buying a product that barely works and for a very short term.

Are you saying someone should trust your own backyard test over the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, the EPA, and the World Health Organization. Give me a break. Citronela oil barely works DEET does. Stop peddling garbage.

If you take offense to anything I say so be it. I am passionate about medicine and saving lives. DEET saves lives.

There is zero evidence taking anything internally whether it is clove, garlic or vinegar, has any effect at all. None
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#19 morenita

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:33 AM

Wiki is informative but not always the most accurate. Citronella oil has been banned in some places, it can cause mild to severe irritation with some. All botanical oils can have the same effect. Straight citronella oil had shown in a test to have some effect for up to an hour but this is not pure citronella oil. Citronela products have been tested and provide very short term protection for about 20 minutes max. But so does cooking oil. Soybean oil was the best. While many thought the properties in the oils themselves were providing the protection now it is being suggested that it is just the oil itself providing a temporary barrier. But the oils evaporate quickly leaving you with no protection. DEET does work.

Throughout the years many botanical oils have been used with varying degrees of effectiveness. Clove oil, lemongrass ( were citronela comes from) etc. Some seemed to work others did not. Clove oil undiluted had some effect. But you should not apply undiluted clove oil to the skin. Many of these oils undiluted will cause mild to severe irritation to the skin. DEET is still the safest product on the market. And the most effective. There is nothing better.

Citronela oil is a very mediocre product at best, Which may provide very short term protection.

This thread should be titled:

IF YOU WANT TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM DENGUE USE DEET it is safe and effective.
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#20 MarkC

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 08:52 AM

after reading all this, I need a deet flavored margarita

SMH
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